Mission Control Podcast

Implementing Best Management Practices to Grow Your Business with Jen Silver, President of Roofing Utah

Dec 1, 2022

Today Mike has on Jen Silver, president of Roofing Utah. They go over patience, empathy, managing a team, accountability, and being a leader.  
 
Challenges come with being in the roofing business. They dive into how relationships, having an end game, and what that means to others vs. what reality is. 

Jen goes over her past experiences, both personal & professional, and how they have shaped her into what she is today. 

 

 

 

 

Let's Connect!

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ep 13 

[00:00:00] Mike: Don't be afraid to invest in things that aren't going to yield you in immediate roi. 

[00:00:04] Jen: Sometimes you have to know when to be patient, and then there's other times when you don't want to be 

[00:00:10] Mike: patient. It's challenging to find the good information, right? There's an abundance of information, right? It's all out there.

There's tons of it.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Mission Control podcast. I'm Mike Sterns, your host. This episode is proudly sponsored by the team at Roofer. If you're looking for end-to-end sales solutions, everything from instant measurements for your proposals to clean and pristine presentations of your proposal, contact the team at Roofer today.

We've got a very special guest that I'm super excited about, the one and only Jen Silver. 

[00:00:49] Jen: Hey, how are are you? I'm great. 

[00:00:51] Mike: I'm doing. Yeah, I'm doing well. Glad, uh, glad you could make some time. I know you're super busy. Means a lot to us and I'm sure our audience as well. 

[00:01:00] Jen: Well, I appreciate you being patient with me while I navigated through the last couple months cuz it has definitely been a very busy year.

[00:01:10] Mike: Yeah. Patience. How, how important is patience? 

[00:01:16] Jen: Patience is one of those things that I think sometimes you have to know when to be patient and then there's other times when you don't want to be patient, right? Like, you can allow opportunities to pass you by if you're being too patient or indecisive on something.

Um, and the same thing with employees, right? So there's a time for patients and then there's a time for accountability and I think we can collapse the two. and not exactly understand how to separate that out and know what is appropriate. When I think anytime you're teaching somebody something new or you're learning something new, um, or you have a comprehension around what someone else is going through, some empathy, then I think patients is probably critical.

But I know that there's been times when I've been too patient letting somebody, you know, get something done or letting somebody, um, take too long to learn and in reality they probably just weren't in the right position, or I needed to go back and do something different and I didn't. And it can actually ruin the relationship or ruin the employee's level of commitment.

So I think it, you really have to know when it's, when it is the time to be patient and when is the time to start to 

[00:02:40] Mike: push. Okay. I love that. And that's, that's super interesting because I feel as if that's not something, you know, you could pick up a book and read and understand how to juggle those, like those concepts.

It's like if you think about driving a car, right? You could read the book that the state gives you as far as like, what is proper rhode etiquette rules, procedures in order to drive safely. And like, you know, that when you get in the car, you gotta push the gas, right? Or if you're driving a manual, you gotta release the clutch as you're pushing the gas.

But then you get in the car and start doing these things and you gotta get a feel for the gas pedal and for the clutch and for the brake in order to make it, uh, a, a non turbulent experience for yourself and for the passengers. Right. 

[00:03:23] Jen: 100%. And managing people. You know, I, I did a presentation during the tour, it was called The Art of Leadership because I really don't think there is a science behind it.

You can read lots of books and you can. You know, learn all of the different ways that people suggest, but you really have to find something that's natural and what works for some people doesn't work for others. And, um, it, I think it comes with experience and, you know, screwing some things up and, um, going back and cleaning it up and owning it, you know, when you screw something up.

I think that that's something that's really important in leadership that a lot of leaders don't grasp is their own personal accountability and how that bleeds down to other people taking accountability for things. Um, but yeah, it, it's, you can read and read and read, but until you do it, until you've experienced it, um, I don't know that it, it really 

does 

[00:04:22] Mike: a.

Yeah, that's a really fair point. What's an example? Because I, I feel like, you know, you're gonna have conceptually how these things are supposed to work, and then you're gonna get into it, right? It's like, uh, you know, in theory if you're learning how to fight, you understand, okay, I want to Perry here and I want to throw a counter punch here.

But then you get punched in the face, right? And maybe make some adjustments on the flies. So what's an example in your leadership where you've experienced maybe that you were too patient or that you didn't have enough empathy? And then how did you, how did you fix that in, in future situations? 

[00:04:58] Jen: You know, I, empathy is tough because a lot of people, again, it's another concept that people collapse, sympathy, and empathy.

And I think that for me, I struggled a lot with empathy earlier on in my management career because I am a very logical thinker. And even though, Yes, I still feel emotion. I react to most situations logically. I respond, um, even to anger typically from a logical point. And I had to learn how to step out of myself and kind of put myself in their shoes and look at, okay, what information do they have?

Um, what's their background? How did they grow up? And then I could be more empathetic, but it still came from a logical standpoint, if that makes sense, because I'm just not naturally an emotional thinker. Um, and it helped me a lot being able to kind of decipher how to be empathetic and match what people need me to match when, you know, conflict or upset or, um, sadness or whatever it is comes up.

Uh, but it's been a tough skill to learn as far as accountability and being too patient. . Um, last fall when I first started, you know, speaking and I was unsure with John Dye, I had a team of people and when we split up last February and kind of just went on, okay, you do this, you do this, you do this, and we just all, we're doing our own thing.

I didn't have accountability in the company. I kind of felt like everybody was on track. We all knew what we were doing and I was consumed, you know, building the brand. And we had, you know, people that were building production and we had people that were building sales and it was all fine until I left.

And then when I left and went on tour and things kind of go crazy and I'm trying to like input, accountability from the standpoint of knowing what's going on and how I could support them life, it, they pulled back so hard and it didn't work. Especially not being. at the time when I was trying to do it, and, you know, everything fell apart.

When I got back, uh, after Roof Con last year, I had really no team left. They had all left. Mm. That was a tough lesson. 

[00:07:25] Mike: Yeah. I feel like some of the biggest gains have, you know, a pretty, uh, substantially uh, difficult path to, you know, that growth, right? ? Well, 

[00:07:39] Jen: that's, yeah. I welcome failure because I don't know what I'm missing, right?

Like, when things are going good and they're just flowing it, it's hard to grow a lot both as a person and inside of, inside of the business. So it's really not until you know what's missing and things start to fall apart, that you can go back and put things in and implement it and learn lessons and say, okay, that sucked.

I forgive myself, which is the hardest part. Most people have a hard time forgiving themselves. and what am I gonna do next time so that this doesn't happen again? And I think that is where the juice is in failure. You have to be able to look at it from a standpoint of how is this opportunity going to make me better and not, I'm bad and wrong, or this is bad and wrong, or you know, whatever other things we tell ourselves.

[00:08:33] Mike: Yeah. And perspective's so important. Right. And I think that like people naturally, I feel like take things for granted. It's very easy to do. We all do it to, to various degrees. You know, something that had helped me early on, and again, furthest thing from perfect, but like I really tried to think through the lens of, okay, without failure, without feeling failure, success doesn't feel as good.

Without sadness, that happiness doesn't feel as good. Right? So you can look at the polar opposites. Um, and I think it's important to try to be appreciative for both sides of that. And like you said, that that's helped me. Be optimistic in those shitty times. Cuz you know, life can, life can suck. It can throw some lemons at you for sure.

And it's not always the easiest just to turn it to the best lemonade you ever had in your life. Right. . Right. You know, there's a ton of cliches around it, but the shit's hard. Right. So maintaining perspective, um, I think is is critical. It has been for me and I'm sure many others. That's a really good point.

It's 

[00:09:35] Jen: interesting, it's interesting that you say that because you know, you hear all of these, I don't know, podcasts or whatever, where people are books, whatever, where people are talking about why the 1% makes it right. And it's like people aren't willing to do the hustle. They're not the grind, they're not willing to fail.

And I do believe that all of those things are true. Um, but I don't know, I think there's the failure and overcoming failure is one, but nobody talks about the personal side of it. , right? Like what does it feel like as a person? Um, because most of us can hustle and grind when we're committed to something, but we dismiss how many relationships we lose.

We dismiss, um, how lonely you get. You know how much you stop trusting people and wondering, cuz it people burn you. And it happens, you know? And then you're wondering, okay, does this person want to be my friend or wanna be around me because of who I am? Or do they wanna be around me because of what I can do for them?

And those are very different conversations and it's really challenging to navigate it and it's incredibly lonely. And I think that maybe more so for women than for men. But I think that's why we don't see more people in that top 1%, especially women in that top 1%. because you literally have to be willing to walk away from almost every relationship you have.

[00:11:08] Mike: Yeah, that's, that's also a really good point. And one of the struggles that I've always had, um, especially since starting the business, is like, I'm hyper competitive, right? And it's, I'm not gonna be more competitive with anyone than I am myself. Right? Just being better. Being better. And like my wife, right?

She, she brings it to my attention. Like, you work all the time and I want, like, my initial thought is like, I know, but like, we're building something great here and it requires me to, to put in X amount of effort if I want to get to where I want to be. But then the other side of that is like, you know, I need to consistently stay focused.

being there as much as the other people in my life need me to be. Right. And those two things, they feel like they're diametrically opposed when you're in the thick of it. Right? Because you've got all these things that are calling you on the business side. Um, and it's like realistically I had to come to the, uh, the realization that I'm the type of person where if my life is a marathon, right?

It's 26.2 miles, I'm the type of person where as soon as I go to cross that tape at that 26.2 miles, the finish line's moving 10 miles down the road, the success from whatever the fruits of the labor will be very short-lived because I'm not gonna feel productive unless that finish line moves. Right? Um, so I think there's a lot of opportunity for me to grow on that side of the things as far as manage it, but, um, being cognizant of that, uh, and cuz I think, I don't think that that's atypical of somebody who's running a business, right?

Or somebody who's super competitive. 

[00:12:41] Jen: I think it also has to do with, do you know you're in game? , right? I think we don't define what it looks like to make it. And so we dangle that carrot and that carrot just keeps getting farther and farther because we're not yet, we're not there yet. Right? And we're at a place where we think, um, what are you doing?

My daughter is in my office, like sliding something around. And um, I apologize cuz I'm in the middle of a podcast and she's, she . It's like, what is she doing? That's funny. Anyways, um, I think that without those defined goals and defined, um, . Yeah. Yeah. Are we there yet? Right. It makes it really hard to know and find peace and be able to pull back, you know, do you have an exit plan?

Do you have an end game or two questions that I always work through with business owners that I'm coaching? Because otherwise we will do exactly what you're saying and we will run ourselves completely ragged and we'll just keep getting to the next place, to the next place, to the next place, which is great, except the rest of our life can suffer.

So I think if, if you have defined end goals, then what you're doing makes sense. But if you don't. You're never gonna stop. 

[00:14:06] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So Mike Sterns a lot of opportunity for growth. That's a work in progress and, uh, we are, I'm excited for the ride, right, ? Yeah. Uh, so what does goal setting look like? Right, because you've got, you can set, you know, you can do a 30 day goal, a daily goal, a yearly goal, five year tenure.

And I think there's, there's an art, there's a nuance to goal setting, right? Like we have goals within the company. I have personal goals, um, things like that. But there's always a balance between being realistic in those like, lofty goals that you may like, stretch goals, and, and then there's like the over the top goals, right?

Where it's. , just by virtue of setting a goal that's conceivably unattainable, like you are gonna have the opposite impact on yourself or your team, right? If, if we know that a salesperson is gonna be able to sell 200 K in a good market in a good year, and you set their goal at 450 K for the month, they're, they're gonna look at that and fucking shut down for the most part.

I, I think some, you, you might get a small percentage of people that can excel and move the needle past what the expectation is, but in that instance, I think it does more harm than good. So what is your art to goal setting to make sure that you're getting the most out of your team yourself and people around you?

[00:15:27] Jen: So, um, I do bonuses, right? So I do realistic goal setting, and then I do bonuses based on stretch goals. That way it keeps people, their, you know, if they hit their normal target or something, that is definitely reasonable. There's a bonus there. But then if they hit that stretch guard, uh, that stretch goal or something that they might think is impossible, well then there's another bonus there so that you're, they're still working towards it.

And you know, the juice is in the middle, right? It's all the stuff that you gain where you push past what you think you can accomplish into a different realm of what you're accomplishing. And maybe you don't hit that 450,000 that month, but maybe you hit three 50 and the most you had ever done in the past was two 50.

So I think I, I agree with you, especially when it comes to motivating your team that it's important to have, you know, different notches along the way, but to reach that unrealistic goal, having a good, um, incentive behind that can help drive them to even maximize what they think they're capable of.

Regardless for me personally with goal setting, um, Like, I know what my end game is, right? I know, I know where I want to be, and I know at what point I wanna be there. And so I go back, okay, if I am, if I want to be, you know, by the time I'm 50, I wanna be lobbying for education reform. Okay? So I'm 42, I've got eight years.

Where do I need to be in five years from now? Where do I need to be in three years from now? Where do I need to be in one year from now? And the other thing I think people don't always do is they don't revisit their goals, right? So my path changed. Okay, so now how does that alter what I'm doing? Or this opportunity came up and I, I took that.

Okay, so how can I make that now work into what that end game role is? Um, another thing, you know, I think that we miss is when we're making decisions in business, especially when it's got a new shiny object, right? A new shiny object comes up. , I read it through two different things. One, does it pass through all my core values?

Right? If it passes through all my personal core values, that's awesome, but then how does that get me closer to my goal? And if it isn't in alignment with that, then that shiny object is not for me. It's actually a distraction. 

[00:17:59] Mike: Mm mm What are your core values? 

[00:18:04] Jen: So, um, neutrality, um, being my word. Um, being in other people's listening, which is kind of what we were talking about a little while ago, where I step into somebody else's shoes and fully understand where they're at.

Um, training and education. So constantly being able to provide that for people. And then, um, selfless contribution. , but those are my main five. And then I've got lots of other ones, but those are the ones that I run things through the most. 

[00:18:44] Mike: Yeah, I think that's a really smart way to go about operating and making decisions, right?

Because at the end of the day, you've gotta live with the decisions you make, especially as a leader. So I think vetting them through your core values it, and I think it's important to note, right, like putting the time into developing your core values and being real with yourself, like who you're looking at in the mirror and who you wanna be, and who you want your company to be, and your team to be a part of that culture.

Um, I think that's really important to establish the core values through that lens. And I, I think that, you know, I've seen people in the past where they create core values and it's like once they're created, Never talked about again or you know, they couldn't cite 'em to you, or they kind of just get stowed away and kinda like the goals, revisit your goals, right?

Yes. Goals should be kind of setting up a roadmap to get from point A to point, whatever it is, B, C, D, F. But you have to hold yourself accountable, right? And check in on those goals and where you're succeeding if you're pacing, if not to be able to establish like, is this still a viable route? Do we need to iterate what the goals are to give yourself a chance at hitting them, 

[00:19:54] Jen: right?

Yeah. And I think goals are fluid, right? Like we set goals and I, I think a lot of people get stuck in, I can't change my goal. Well, I think you can always change your goals, especially if you're working towards some big end game, right? Because how you get there may change, the opportunities that unfold may change.

And if we're so rigid and we don't understand how to navigate that, I think you miss a lot of opportunities. You know, life brings you things, whether you ask for them or not, you know, and I, life happens for you, not to you. And so when, when those things come up, I have to really consider, okay, is this a distraction?

Right? Is this the negative side of life trying to distract me from my goal? Or is this the positive side of life? Showing me something that I didn't know, that I didn't know that would help me get towards my goal quicker? And when I run things through my core values, it's almost always obvious, which it is instantly.

And I think there's a difference between personal core values and business core values. 

[00:21:05] Mike: Hmm, that's interesting. So what's the gap or what's the difference between your personal core values versus your businesses? 

[00:21:18] Jen: Well, Like for me, I don't know that my business's core value is gonna be neutrality, right?

Like, that doesn't necessarily bleed over. However, as a leader, it bleeds into our culture because I look at things objectively. I'm not try, I'm, I'm not picky or, oh, what's the word? Bias to any certain department. Like I do very much look at things from a very broad overall picture, but is my, is my business' core values neutrality?

No. That would not make sense if that. Does that kind of answer your question? 

[00:21:54] Mike: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting distinction. I haven't heard anyone make that distinction, so thank you for welcoming that into the conversation. 

[00:22:03] Jen: Yes. And accountability partners are important. Elaborate? Um, I think a lot of times business owners tend to use an employee as an accountability partner because that's what's comfortable.

These are my goals. And nobody ever holds anybody accountable. Like as an owner, it's easier to hold your employees accountable, but it's very difficult for employees to hold an owner accountable, whether, even if you're an open minded person, it still is an uncomfortable place for a team. So having someone in your life that's probably doing something similar doesn't mean they have to be a roofing contractor or for you an actual, you know, another digital marketing company, but somebody that understands entrepreneurship and what it takes to do that.

That can be an accountability partner where you check in with them once a month, Hey, this is what I did on my goals, this is what I didn't do. Um, you know, this, these are the things I changed. These are my goals for next month. Just so that you have that, because if you don't ever have anybody that you're following up with, we are, it's really easy to break our word to ourselves.

[00:23:15] Mike: That's an amazing point and one that's worth diving a little bit further into as well. Cuz it's like, so there's a couple benefits to that, right? So it's, you're having that conversation. It's like go having somebody to go to the gym with, right? If you guys got 60 day plan, you're more likely to show up and go and get the results that you want because somebody's in the trenches with you.

Right? And the frequency in this context, you know, whether it's a month or biweekly or even quarterly, whatever the case may be, I think there's huge gains to be made as far as that's concerned. The other side of it is like the nature of like that cathartic behavior, right? You're talking about all the things that are on your chest about your business to a party that's not biased and can relate, right?

I think that's super important, right? It won't, the value of that doesn't fit into your spreadsheet as far as how much that's worth. But as far as like cleansing your soul, of all those things that are kind of disturbing you consciously or subconsciously has immense value, right? Yes. 

[00:24:14] Jen: And you can't bleed it into your team, right?

Because right now you're negative networking. Um, and that is something that I am not a fan of and it's easy for people to do because we naturally want to vent and we naturally want to seek advice or, you know, get some validation of how we're feeling or what we're doing. And you have to go to a non-biased party because, like even for your wife, for example, right?

If you were to vent to your brother or vent to your dad, or vent to your mom about a challenge you guys were facing, they are biased to you. Like, they may give you some advice, but they're still always gonna support you. And so the way that they view your wife starts to change. Now you go back and you work it out with her and everything's done.

We don't then go back to people in our lives and say, oh yeah, we fixed it. You know, it was a miscommunication. I did this. We just kind of leave them and it continues to build up. And then those people actually become a negative influence on our relationships because all they hear about is the negativity.

We're not inclined to go and share the positive things, and then we're confused. We're like, why do you hate my wife? She's very person, right? Like, what the hell? Like, why, why are you doing, why are you saying that, mom, that's so wrong. And it bec and it's serious and it, we do it at work. We, I mean in all kinds of relationships.

And so you have to a hundred percent have somebody that is gonna give you objective opinions and views, but is also their relationship to the other party. Doesn't matter because it, they're not gonna go back and it's not gonna change the dynamic and then become a negative influence on your relationship.

[00:26:03] Mike: Ain't that the truth? That is very well put. And I think so in that vein, like. Mental health is very important, and I think it's off, it's easy to overlook, right? So if you're struggling, don't be ashamed to talk to a therapist, right? Because they can make time for you. They can be objective. Um, when we deal with things internally, and I'm not a therapist or a doctor or anything, I'm just some digital marketing guy, but what I can say is that when we make decisions, whether it's about our business, our marketing plan, our production team, uh, how we feel about person A, B, or C, there's always going to be recency bias, right?

Mm-hmm. , you take what's happened in the last two days, you know, 72 hours, two weeks, and you aggregate that to your past, right? And maybe you remember some of the good things or some of the bad things, but it's really hard to make an informed decision about how to, how to move forward. In a situation if your, if your perception is skewed by recent events.

Right. So to your point about an accountability partner, you know, I use the example of a therapist, but even if you have a coach or another, somebody in a, an adjacent vertical or the same vertical in a different market mm-hmm. being able to have those conversations periodically and you could check in with them and they can talk about what you said three months ago, right?

Because they didn't deal with the last 90 days of shit that you dealt with and they could remember that conversation. I think there's just massive impact to that in a positive way. 

[00:27:28] Jen: And I think that those are the types of things that people find when they go to conventions, right? They meet other people and or conferences, whatever you wanna call them.

Um, they meet other people and they can start to establish those types of relationships because especially in business, there's a ton of resources in this industry that will help you. And talk to you and give you advice of how they did things or what they did wrong, or you know, why they would suggest doing it differently than you were, you know, considering.

And we don't tap into it enough. 

[00:28:04] Mike: Yeah, I, I think that there's a ton of opportunity and I had mentioned on a previous show, it's like, It, it's challenging to find . It's challenging to find the good information, right? There's an abundance of information, right? It's all out there. There's tons of it. But like, how do you discern who you wanna listen to and who you don't wanna listen to?

What's good advice, what's not? Um, you know, like in my experience, for instance, in college, right? The number one thing when you're doing research is like, make sure the source is credible. Well, that's easy enough. If I'm, if I'm looking for peer reviewed article about political statistics, and it's from, you know, dot edu source versus like a Wiki blog, right?

Mm-hmm. . And it's not too challenging to discern those things. But in the age that we're in now where we've got, let's say YouTube and like, Fucking Mike. He keeps hitting me with these reels. I've got 37 reels of his in the last three days. Like, how do I know that he actually knows what it is he's talking about?

Or if he's just another one of these bullshit marketing companies? Um, like how do you sort through that yourself to align with people that you feel are very credible you can trust and will add a tremendous amount of value to you moving forward? That's 

[00:29:15] Jen: a good question. Um, sometimes you go based on your gut, right?

Sometimes you're, and sometimes you're wrong, and sometimes you go based on your gut and it's right. Uh, I think with professional references, like somebody that I'm gonna hire, whether it's a bookkeeper or a cpa or an attorney or a marketing company, I think I have enough experience now to ask the right questions.

And if they don't answer the questions that I'm asking the way that I want them to, or the way that I believe that they should. Then they're probably not the right person. Um, it's harder when it comes to more personal relationships. Mm-hmm. and betting people. I have a pretty good read of my gut, right?

And every big mistake I've ever made in my life was because I didn't listen to my intuition. I didn't listen to that gut feeling that said no. I pushed through it and I justified it, and I did all of these things to make it fit. And that, that's probably my number one advice to all young people is trust your intuition.

If your intuition at all is telling you this isn't a good idea, or, um, you feel weird about it, you're probably right. Don't try to fit it in because of the shiny object or because you think it's what you want. And that's the biggest read for me. I think everybody has that. It's just part of being human and part of protecting ourselves and we just ignore it.

[00:31:02] Mike: I love that. There's a couple things there, right? Because if you feel this way, you don't necessarily have to put your finger on why you feel this way. Right? Right. And identify on a, you know, a piece of paper like, this is why I feel this way. Cuz like if you decide to go against your intuition in that instance, like maybe there's that like low level dissonance that's taking place like an anxiety about you doing something you feel is not right and that can, that can hamstring you right and bog you down mentally.

And it's like it can also become, whether it's consciously or subconsciously, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're not going after it with the same tenacity that you would, something that you feel really confident about, you are not giving it to the best opportunity to succeed anyways.

Right. Yeah. So I think, I think that's a really good point as far as intuition. Cause like I'm a big data guy, right? I try to, I try to make database decisions, but they're 100% of our times where it's like, I feel this, so we're gonna do this. Yeah. And I think the most important thing you said is like, you're gonna be wrong.

Sometimes it's okay. Like , sometimes we're gonna eat the shit sandwich, like you're not gonna be right a hundred percent of the time. So you have to welcome like that 

[00:32:10] Jen: wrong experience and you have to just own it, right? Yeah. Like own it. Own it. Yeah. Okay. I, I made a bad decision. Um, that sucks cuz all of the rest of the things that have snowballed out of it also are a consequence of my choice.

Mm-hmm. and forgive yourself. Forgiving yourself is really important cuz if you don't forgive yourself for the bad decision. It lingers in your brain constantly, and you're constantly bringing it back in, and you have fear around other decisions. I always tell people, there's three voices in your head.

Okay? There's the ba, the negative voice, which is our subconscious programming, you know, telling you things like, I'm not worthy, or I'm not lovable, or they're gonna find out that you don't know, or, um, you're dumb, you're stupid. Like all of those little subconscious programming. And then you've got your intuition, which is almost always positive, right?

Or warning, but not in a negative mindset. More of in a, Hey, you should go this way, or, Hey, don't, don't take that turn, or, Hey, go pick up your kids, for example. Mm-hmm. . Um, and we, and I can tell you about that story with the plane crash if you want, but, and then you've got yourself. Right. Your actual inner voice in your head.

And I, what triggers me to know that something is going on that I need to be aware of is I start to argue in my brain and I have to look at what two, two areas are arguing because my intuition never argues with my subconscious. That never happens. It's always either self arguing with my subconscious or self arguing with my intuition.

Mm-hmm. . And then I can kind of see is it true, is it mine? And where did it come from? And so all of that negative stuff. And in my head, her name is Karen, cuz it's, it's a lot easier to distinguish when you name those voices. Love it. You know, Karen's telling me, oh, you're not worthy, or, oh, you're, you're not lovable or whatever.

And I can tell Karen to shut the fuck up. 

[00:34:21] Mike: Yeah. Love it. Shut. 

[00:34:23] Jen: Fuck up Karen. Go away. and she, she gets quiet. But when my intuition is, is arguing with myself, I have it, it sounds different. It, it isn't that it isn't so negative. It's usually telling me to do something different than I would normally do it or showing me something different than what I expected.

And that's how I discern those three voices. And for me, that voice is God. For some people it's um, the universe. For some people it's intuition and it doesn't really matter in my opinion. I think they're all, whatever works for you. 

[00:35:03] Mike: Yeah, that's, uh, that's some sound advice there. Yeah. I appreciate that perspective.

I think it's also worth noting this is something that I've learned through my experience and maybe you agree or disagree, but it'd be open and would love your feedback on it. It's also important to try to discern. Why things fail or what caused that breakdown as far as like you envision it, especially in the case of intuition, we envision going from here to here.

Well, guess what? We stopped here. So what I'll say is that I've found that you could make the optimal choice at the time. Let's say you got 10 things to choose from. You could. Reverse engineer every one of 'em and pick the most sound choice that's most likely to yield the most positive outcome for you.

And it could still go to hell in a hand basket. Right? And there's various variables in the equation of success that can cause that breakdown. So you can make the right choice and have a shitty outcome. And it doesn't necessarily mean the choice is wrong, but it's worth digging into to try to understand what happened that it failed.

Because maybe, maybe it started as the right choice, but then you know, your goal pivoted, right? And, and you had to make an adjustment and you weren't self-aware in adjusting what that roadmap looked like. Or maybe it was something external and external force that that caused it to break down. And that's where I like to use like data and things like that in my.

like, okay, we did X, Y, and Z. Like it should have yielded this outcome. Well, why didn't it? Let's, let's take an analytical approach that satisfies my rational brain as well and try to figure out, and, and it, it's not a hundred percent diag diagnostic rate where it's like, okay, this 100% led to it, but you can have a better understanding of it.

Right. 

[00:36:50] Jen: I think that that's a lot easier when it come, when it comes to like a business decision like that. Mm-hmm. probably one of the hardest decisions as a leader that I've ever made. Uh, I was 27 and I had a guy on my team. I was a, in the grocery business at that point, and I was a, a general manager for, uh, it was called Fresh and Easy.

It was similar to kind of like Walmart grocery, but it was a lot smaller and they only had, instead of 50 barbecue sauces, you only had like three to choose from. And they had Right cause. That's like the worst when you go in and you look and there's like all of these different things up there and you're like, why are there so many choices?

Right? Like, it's just 

[00:37:34] Mike: crazy. That's why realtor shows you two or three houses, right? Yeah. 

[00:37:38] Jen: No, it's smart. It just, it becomes too much. But anyways, that was the concept is limit the amount of choices, you know, half the size. And it was great. I loved it. Um, anyways, I was, I had an employee and he was somewhat socially awkward, but he would make the women uncomfortable.

He would stare at them. He would say odd things to them. And I, I tried coaching him a few times, um, and, you know, I had to sit down and document him because corporate America requires documentation right? When you're having conversations like that. And it probably went on for about three months and I finally let him go.

Mm-hmm. . And, um, when I let him go, he went home and killed himself, Jesus. And. The next day, you know, after I found out his dad showed up at the grocery store and just lost it on me. Right. And, you know, blamed me and all of the various, all of the various things that were going on. And that was a lot to handle as a leader.

And I think it's everybody's worst fear when letting somebody go either A, they're gonna do harm to you or B, they're gonna do harm to themselves. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, I've looked at that situation numerous times over the course of my life and one how he chose to react is not on me. Right. Like that is an outside of the realm of normal, so to speak.

If normal is a gauge, um, two. I feel like I did everything I could have, right? I sat down and I coached him, and I tried this, and I tried this, and we got to this many warnings and I had to let him go. It's my job as a leader to protect my entire team, right? Even if, even if you're protecting them from other people on the team.

But I, I don't know that there was data and I don't, I will never know if there had been a different way to handle that situation or if I missed social cues or identifying factors or something else where I could have gotten him help. Um, so yes, I think sometimes with data you can go in and you can analyze and figure it out, and I think sometimes when it comes to people, you just have to know that you did everything the best way you could.

And there's not always a specific. Thing that failed and that can be hard to process through and, you know, have forgiveness around and move forward. So it, it becomes, again, you have to really look at situations and people's situations are always more gray than data situations. 

[00:40:38] Mike: Yeah. Without a doubt. And that is tragic.

Um, for sure. And I think you, you really hit the nail on the head though. It's like, if you are in life, whether it's personal business, you know, different relationships, it's like, do your best. Right. I think that's, uh, you know, I, I be able to, for me, like that's what I try to do is. How can I feel the best that I can about the person that I see when I'm brushing my teeth in the morning?

Right. You know? Yeah. Literally and metaphorically. Like, I want to be able to feel really good and it's like with how ambitious I am, it's like the only way to do that is know that I'm doing my best. Right. So if you, and don't lie to yourself, be honest. Cuz there's a lot of shit that I don't, that you find in, in reflection and being self-aware where it's like, I'm fucking up here.

Right. So like, let's dag let's acknowledge it, let's diagnose it and let's put together an action plan to make sure that this isn't overlooked. Right? Yep. And it's always, there's always gonna be something that, like, if you're being real with yourself, that you could be better at . So self-awareness is huge, right?

[00:41:48] Jen: Yes. And you have to, you have to take the victim mentality out of it. Right? Like I, that is so rampant in society these days. It's never. at least. Yeah. Okay. I was like, are you being a smart ass? I can't tell. Are you being a smart? As am I, is it not that way where you're at? No. It, it actually blows my mind that, you know, we live so much in victimization cuz there's really no power there.

Yeah. There's also no accountability, but, but it, it becomes a cost payoff, right? Like what is it costing you to be a victim and what, what would be the payoff for having that? And then what do you actually get when you take responsibility and own your shit and get that power back so that you can move forward?

I think a lot of people don't understand the true cost of their actions, especially in victimization and the quality of the relationships that they have and how people feel about them. Um, but we're also, as a society, not willing to call people out on their shit because we don't want people to call us out on ours.

And it's a huge, huge challenge I see every day, oh, they're doing, I'm failing because so and so is, you know, waving deductibles or because of, you know, they're doing this illegally and so they're getting all the business. And I'm like, okay. So that's what they're doing. And there's a consequence to that, but you're not a victim of that, right?

Your, your business is not a victim. You have to figure out how to find your power and be accountable and sell against it. But if you live in the poor, pitiful me, you're never gonna, you're never gonna 

[00:43:30] Mike: grow. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's an, that's an outstanding point because like in that, like, in that situation, it's like what can you do to be proactive, to educate your target market as far.

What can be the woes of choosing somebody that does A, B, C, and D? And I think in marketing, a lot of times people don't like to invest in something that's not a lead tomorrow, right? Like, if I spend a thousand dollars, I want to see that fucking lead hit the spreadsheet, and I want to know that every three of those that come in, I'm selling one roof or I'm not happy.

Like, you have to get the fuck outta that mindset. Especially like in that circumstance where consumer education is gonna be super, super, super important. Yep. To, to combating that. Yeah, that's a really good point. 

[00:44:12] Jen: You know, when I first started speaking, I got, you know, a lot of flack from people to be like, well, what's this gonna do for your business?

Like, you're not helping yourself at all, you know, by going out and doing these things, you're not helping. And I'm like, no, I'm building a brand. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, before I went out with John Dye in September of 21, in August, we had 78 organic impressions the entire month of August. Okay. The first week of September we had 661.

Okay. So from then until July of 22, which is about eight months, we've grown so much from an organic standpoint. I haven't bought a lead, I haven't paid for advertising, I haven't run anything at all. And we consistently get between 10 and 15 organic leads a week, sometimes 20. Sometimes. It's so much that I have to sell them because we can't fulfill them.

We're not, I'm not at a place where I'm ready to do that. So investing in your brand is critical. And even though you may not see the fruits of your labor, like you were saying tomorrow, what is it gonna do for you long term and organic growth and the things around, you know, optimizing SEO and, and having people get traffic to your website is huge.

Yeah. 

[00:45:36] Mike: Huge. Yeah, I mean it's especially content like content's super important and whether you're doing like in the, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about the context of what you had brought up. It's like you can do door hangers, you can do email campaigns, um, you can go to home shows and I think that what a lot of people miss on.

Give no strings attached content. Right. With value. Yes. Right. So I've invested a ton of time, money, and energy between, you know, equipment, having an in-house editor, being able to have people like yourself on the show, because I know for a fact like, it's gonna help me, it's gonna help my brand. I know that, right?

Mm-hmm. . But it's also gonna be valuable for any roofing contractor or contractor out there that's trying to run a business, having insights and, and diversified perspective from all sorts of different people that are there or have been there. Like it's gonna be incredibly useful to them. And I'm not charging anything but the byproduct of that.

Well, I get to, I get to kind of piggyback off of that, right? And Asen Ascend gets value out of that. So it's like you win on all fronts. So don't be afraid to invest in things that aren't going to yield you an immediate roi. 

[00:46:49] Jen: I a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah. Most of life doesn't yield an immediate roi.

but that goes back to, we could go on and on about how we are a society of instant gratification. Like that's what we want. Um, and it, it is challenging to get people to be patient. Here we go, here's patience. It's all coming back. It's all coming back. Um, patient enough to not need that fulfillment right then.

And which comes to goal setting. You have to look at it from a standpoint of what are my goals? Is this pushing me closer to my goals? Because if you don't have that in game and you don't have that clear direction, that's when investments become harder to see. And ROIs become something that people want right now.

Do you like how I brought that all back in together? Let's 

[00:47:42] Mike: see what the audience think.

[00:47:46] Jen: Oh, thank you guys. Thank you. Love it so much.

[00:47:52] Mike: Yes. Oh, positive. Very well put and in, in a, just an amazing job tying it all together. That's fantastic. So what we're gonna do now is we're going to transition into what we would typically start with and like, let's talk about the journey of Jen Silver, right? You'd mentioned you were in retail. I think I've seen content before that you were in a restaurant business and like mm-hmm.

now you're in the roofing business and like where did you start? Where you're at now, how did you get there? What did that look like? Lessons you've learned. I mean, we want it all. You want 

[00:48:24] Jen: it all? Okay, here we go. Um, so I started waiting tables at 16 and I worked at this little mom and pops restaurant in Melbourne, North Carolina.

That was a seafood joint, and I was working like six to nine 30 and I was making a hundred bucks a shift. How were their grits? Their grits were amazing. Okay. All right. Yes. I mean, they, they're, and they were like fried oysters, fried catfish, just awesome food. Got it. Um, but I learned really quickly that I got to control my money when I waited tables.

Right. If I spent more time building the relationship, I made more money. If I was busy and I couldn't, but I wanted more tables, like I, I learned that it was a really good way to make money. Well, I graduated from high school, um, with a great gpa, with great SATs. I got into almost every college I applied to, and I had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up.

Like, and it didn't make sense for me to go to college when I didn't know if I even needed a degree. And that was really hard for my parents to understand because it was right at the beginning of the push of everybody needs to go to. Um, but I didn't. And so I kept working in restaurants and I ended up working at Chili's, um, and I told him, Hey, I wanna be a manager when I turn 21.

So I wanna cross train in every position in the restaurant so that by the time I'm 21, I'm ready to go. Well, that was really fun. And they didn't, I think most people don't think people understand what they're asking, but I learned how to cook every single position. I learned how to serve or not serve. I already served, I learned how to host.

I mean, I did everything except bartend. So then I moved to Vegas and told 'em, you know, Hey, I'm 21. I wanna be a manager. And they're like, well, we don't promote 21 year old managers. Like, that's just not a thing in the company. And I said, okay, well then tell me what I need to do to show you that I'm not the same as every other 21 year old.

Like, I want to be a manager. This is my goal. , and this was October of 2001. So I turned 21 in August of that year. So he told me to create and grow a catering program. And if I could do that in six months where I had everything, you know, up and running and they were getting a few catering jobs, then they would promote me.

So I wrote a training manual. I recruited, I trained, we went out and dropped off flyers. And by, I think it was February, March, we needed a whole catering manager because I had grew the department so much that the teams inside the companies couldn't handle it in the various Chilis locations in Vegas. And so, you know, April comes around and he sits down and he looks, I mean, he is like, well I guess you get to be a manager cuz you did exactly what I asked you to do.

None of us thought you were gonna be able to do it. And I laughed. And so I became a Chili's manager. Um, After Chili's, they, when I, after I came back from maternity leave, the second time, they actually transferred me to Macaroni Grill to learn how or to run their management and training program. And I did that for about nine months and then our VP left to open up, pays and gave me a job as a general manager at 24.

So at 24 I was starting a brand new restaurant recruiting. I think I hired 120 employees. I had to wean it down to 45. Within the first couple weeks of training from there, um, I got divorced and it was really hard being a restaurant manager and a single mom. So I thought I would try mortgages and I was awesome at subprime mortgages, like putting and this is Vegas.

Okay, 2000. Yeah. Um, I was so good at like putting the pieces together and figuring out what they needed to pay off to qualify from a DTI standpoint and stated income and all of the various things that go into exactly why the industry crashed, uh, and the economy. We can blame Jen as one of those people, but I loved it and it was really fun.

Well, Vegas got hit first and hardest. So in March of oh seven I lost my job and, um, I ended up working at Starbucks for, as a general manager for about six or eight months just to keep money coming in. And then I got recruited by Fresh and Easy to be a store manager. Um, from there I was a store manager for about six months and they promoted me to an area training manager and then to an assistant area director.

And ultimately what I would do is go into problem and challenge stores and I'd figure out what was wrong. Was it inventory? Was it management? Was it processes and procedures? and I would help fix it all. Sometimes it meant letting people go. Sometimes it meant changing people's jobs. Sometimes it meant hiring new people.

And then I would go to the next store and then, uh, I ended up meeting my military ex-husband. Cause I have two ex-husbands. I, my picker was broken for a while and we moved to Japan, uh, for four years and then we moved to Utah in 2016. And uh, about a year and a half after that we separated and got, or 2014 is when we moved to Utah.

Uh, separated and divorced. And I had to figure out what I wanted to be this time when I grew up, I had little kids. I knew that outside sales would be a good career for me with little kids cuz I could kind of make my own schedule and it would be flexible. But it's scary cuz it's commissioned and I'd never really worked, um, in a commission type of situation other than mortgages.

And obviously that didn't go so well. . So I chose construction because construction's stable and took a job at the country club so that I could meet construction owners because I knew that nobody would hire me with no construction experience and not know me. Right. And I didn't know anybody in Utah. Yep.

Using my little brain. I'm pretty strategic when I start to plan things out on my goals. Um, but I got hired by SRS and they put me at the front desk. I learned everything about roofing and roofers would come pick me up and take me out to jobs and taught me how to hand measure and get on roofs and here we are,

[00:54:55] Mike: Okay. 

[00:54:56] Jen: You know, I think restaurant managers, I tell people all the time, if you're looking to recruit for a manager, like a general manager or a production manager, hire a restaurant manager. And the reason. Yeah, cuz it's very similar right? In plates that you're spinning. You've got the kitchen, which is production, you've got the service staff, which is all of your, um, sales people.

Sales. Yep. And then you've got your host staff, which is really like your office people. And so they understand how all of those spinning plates work and how they have to, you know, intertwine and move together. Yet they're completely separate with separate cultures, separate personalities. However, they all have to be working cohesively because if one leg falls off, the whole team breaks and they tend to be some of the best managers.

[00:55:47] Mike: Yeah. And I mean, and they could also operate in complete fucking chaos if, if, you know, things go sideways, right? You 

[00:55:53] Jen: must worked in the restaurant business before. Cause it's complete fucking chaos when things go side. Yeah. And when people are hungry, they're hang and they're mad at customers, you know?

And it's similar to what a home is because it's a personal, it's a very personal experience. So for me it's always just translated really easily. 

[00:56:11] Mike: Yeah. It's interesting because, uh, you know, I don't think intuitively a lot of people would kind of draw those parallels between the two, but that makes a lot of sense the way you put it.

What, so you lived in Japan for four years. What was that 

[00:56:23] Jen: like? It was amazing. We lived, um, in Okinawa, so from a culture standpoint, way more similar to Hawaii than probably mainland Japan. Okinawas don't really consider themselves even to be Japanese. But, um, you know, I took the kids to the beach all the time.

We did snorkeling. Um, we went through probably two to three typhoons a year, which a typhoon is very similar to a hurricane other than the winds turned the opposite way because you're below the equator. Um, And we'd have typhoon parties and yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. It was, it was a wild four years, but it was a lot of fun.

[00:57:05] Mike: Yeah. What's the, uh, so you said that you had an issue with your picker. Yes. What, what was the greatest lesson that you pulled out of the failed marriages? 

[00:57:19] Jen: Um, well, they were both different, right? So my first one, we were really young. Um, I got pregnant. I don't think either of us were really ready for that.

Um, so that one was more around co-parenting and how do you make the best of situations now that this is where you're at. Mm-hmm. . Um, my second marriage was around my patients, right? So we met, he didn't live there. Um, and. I think we just, everything happened too fast and I didn't really get to know him and I ignored red flags and didn't trust my intuition.

Uh, and it became a very toxic marriage on both sides. Yeah. And so he brought out probably the worst side of me. And I think there's people in life that bring out the best in you, and there's people in life that bring out the worst in you. And I think we both brought out the worst in each other. And, um, you know, I, I still have a fear that my picker could be broken, which is why I think I'm single and why I've stayed single, partially, also because of what you were talking about earlier with balance.

I'm not really at a place where I'm ready or willing to compromise my drive. And I don't know how that would fit in with somebody else, especially someone who's not an entrepreneur. I think that they would not understand that. And. So it's just easier. Um, but a lot of it is around trusting your gut and not, you know, not needing to understand why your gut is telling you this is not the right thing and moving, moving through that.

And it's hard when it comes to people because we're really good at justifying things when it comes to others. And other people are good at justifying why they did things or why that happened or whatever. Um, so yeah, I think that that's probably, What I've learned, if 

[00:59:27] Mike: that makes sense. It's kinda, it does make, it does make sense.

And I always said that I'm like the, the shittiest thing about being, I, I mean, so I used to do sales. I technically still do sales. Um, but I used to, like, my defined role was outside sales and I'm like, I did very well. And like the shittiest part of that was the fact that I could sell myself on anything as well.

Right. . Yeah. Like this is a really poor decision, but like, when I made it, like, I mean it made complete sense. Yeah. Um, yeah. So know thy self and, and be . 

[01:00:02] Jen: Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And for like, you've gotta forgive yourself like you have to like people, I know I've said that a few different times, but it is the one piece that we don't do, like, we'll forgive other people, but we hold onto it.

And, um, I. We screw up, you know, you make 'em, you do the best you can and sometimes it's wrong and oh, well that's okay. Like it doesn't mean that you're wrong just cuz you made a bad decision or that you're bad because you made a bad decision. It just means probably shouldn't make that decision 

[01:00:37] Mike: again.

Well, and I was just gonna hit on that, it's like, you know, learning and forgiveness, those aren't mutually exclusive. So like you can forgive yourself while taking away a lesson from that circumstance, right? You don't have to be miserable about it or, or beat yourself up too long. I, I think that there's certainly should be some level of atonement when you make a bad choice and, and reflect on that and spend some time in that mindset.

Yeah. To carry that with you for years on, on because you made a shitty choice, is not productive and it's not healthy. Yeah. Um, I don't think you need to be a, a psychiatrist or a psychologist to understand that. Um, but that's a really good point. Forgiveness. How do you forgive yourself? Do, do you have exercises that you do personally that help you, you know, be aligned with the path of forgiveness?

[01:01:26] Jen: Um, so I look at it the same way I look at forgiving other people, right? Mm-hmm. , what information did I have at the time? Did I make the best decision or what I thought was the best decision at the time? And if I didn't, why? Right? Why did I go that other route? Or why did I not trust my intuition? Or why did I repeat that same behavior?

Where did that come from? And most of the time for women in relationships, it comes from your relationship with your dad, right? So getting to the root of those, you know, not feeling lovable or needing that. , having a man in your life or whatever that is. Usually it's rooted from there. And honestly, sometimes you just have to forgive yourself to forgive yourself.

You don't always get to know all of the other space around it. It's whether or not you're committed to continuing to grow or not. Because if you have a lot of incompletions with yourself, they just continue to resurface over and over and over and over. Hmm,

[01:02:34] Mike: that sounds, it sounds challenging. 

[01:02:38] Jen: Oh, it's incredibly challenging. But you have, it gets down to what are you committed to? Like, are you committed to more of the same? Like, are you committed to living in that, in that same space, making those same mistakes? Or are you committed to growing and are you committed to being a better version of you?

And once you are really clear on that, , it's a lot easier to take accountability and forgive yourself. 

[01:03:08] Mike: So when you employ accountability to somebody else or within yourself, right? Uh, I think it's kind of, uh, I feel like it's kind of opposed to forgiveness in that moment, right? Because you have to acknowledge, you know, a misstep or something that wasn't right.

Or, or, I mean, or positive accountability. Right. The other side of it is like acknowledging the good shit that you've done. Yeah. Uh, which is Yeah. Yeah. You, you're 

[01:03:35] Jen: kicked its ass here. Good job. Right? 

[01:03:37] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Give, give yourself an at a girl, an attaboy, right? Like, that's, that's, that's good. Um, but how do you, when is it, when do you move on from the accountability to the forgiveness?

If you've understood and acknowledged it, you made a poor choice 

[01:03:55] Jen: once you figured out what drove you to the poor choice. Mm. Right. Um, and, and oftentimes it can be something broken from your childhood that you, you don't recognize or that you didn't even do to yourself, right? But you did adopt that negative self belief and owning that you've adopted, that you realized that consciously you were a child.

And, um, it's not true. And you've gotta forgive yourself for that as well. But it just becomes a choice. It, it really is. Do you wanna be a victim even to yourself? Because if you don't take accountability, you're being a victim or you're being right and justified, or, um, which makes the other person wrong in all of those, you lose your power.

You lose your ability to grow, you use your ability to. Maximize your potential when you have parts of your past where you're still committed to being right or you are justified in that decision, or, um, you were a victim, and you have to let go of what you get out of that to be able to be truly accountable.

[01:05:14] Mike: All right, so, but what about in the instance? So the time that you move on is the time that you understand why things panned out the way they did. But what if it's a situation where you can't delineate why something happened, like the circumstance that you gave earlier. There's no way to understand why it failed or what caused it to go sideways.

Like there's a lot of those situations we all deal with personally and professionally. How long do you stay in that space of atonement or hold accountability, right to, to where it's like, okay, now it's time to forgive. 

[01:05:46] Jen: Um, I think it's a case by case basis and it depends on what you did and how it. , how much of an impact it has had and whether or not it's still continuing to control you, right?

Mm-hmm. , I think that there are things in my life that being one of them that I don't know that I'm ever gonna be complete around, right? Like, I think about it sometimes, but it also isn't a deciding factor when I make decisions. Like it doesn't come up for me if I'm looking to hire or I'm looking to let somebody else go.

I'm, I may not ever understand it or why I needed that lesson or why that happened, but I don't know that it will ever completely go away as far as what else could I have done right? Um, and I have a few things in my life like that, but being in that inquiry isn't the same as forgiving myself, right? Like I forgave myself, cuz I truly believe I did the best that I could have with the knowledge that I had right at that time.

Um, the outcome is shitty, but I don't know that I could have done anything any different. Right, 

[01:06:58] Mike: right. Yeah, that's really well put. Um, hmm. You mentioned a plane crash. I did, yeah. Yeah. I know that I'm interested in hearing more and I'm sure everyone tuning in is as well. 

[01:07:18] Jen: So what do you believe the word obedient means?

[01:07:24] Mike: Oh, shit. Um, let's see here. What does the word obedient mean? Um, I think that the first thing that comes to mind is, is taking instruction. 

[01:07:38] Jen: Okay. Yeah. So I asked this question because, um, to me, obedience is doing what you're told to do when you don't want to do it. , right? Like it, it, I get, oh, it's following the rules, or, oh, it's doing this, or, oh, it's taking instruction.

But there's a, in my world, there's a difference between being compliant and being obedient. And obedience in my world doesn't come up until you really don't want to do something and you're doing it anyways. The rest of them, I think you're just being compliant. You're being compliant to following the rules.

You're doing what you've been told to do, which is also compliance. So we'll go back and I'll explain to you why I think that that's what obedience means, or why it's come to mean that for me. So in January of 2020, I was renting a home with my ex-fiance and I would, I was living there full time with my kids and he would come up sometimes on the weekends and stay, and we were trying to figure out how to blend families.

We had seven kids collectively. . I owned a townhouse and, um, still rent my, and I had a friend staying at my townhouse. My kids would walk there every day after school and I would go and pick them up. Yeah. Well, on this day, that voice and tuition, God started telling me to go pick up my kids at one 30. And I had a ton to do that day and deadlines for the attorney general's office that had to be in by 5:00 PM And I was like, I'm not going to get my kids.

Like I've got way too much going on from one 30 to two 30 nonstop. That voice just kept saying, go get your kids done. Go pick up your kids, go get your kids. And I got really angry and I slammed my hands down on my desk and I got up and my ex was like, what's going on? I go, I've gotta go get the kids.

Like I, something just keeps telling me over and over and over to go get 'em, so I'm just gonna go get 'em. And I was like, okay. . So I left, I drove over to my townhouse, I pick up my kids, get 'em in the car. It's 2 57 when we pulled out. Cuz I'm trying to figure out, okay, what can I still get done on my list?

Like when do I need to start dinner and do homework? You know that, that number, it's just ingrained in my brain. So we get home, kids are playing, I bribed them with dessert so that they didn't fight so that I could, so that I could get stuff 

[01:10:11] Mike: done, you know, great motivator for kids by the way. I can. Oh, 

[01:10:14] Jen: it's a solid motivator.

Especially if you don't do dessert all the time, it's solid. My 

[01:10:19] Mike: daughter's first 5k real quick was I incentivize her with a, uh, frappuccino strawberry frappuccino from Starbucks. She was six years old. She finished it and it worked in't Yeah, I like it. Like it didn't 

[01:10:29] Jen: mean to hijack your story. Sorry. No, no, you're okay.

Um, anyways, so right around three 20 my phone rings and it's my neighbor at the townhouse and she never calls me. So I answer. and she's just hysterical. And she's like, where are your kids? I go, they're with me. And she's like, no, Jen, I just saw them like, I, I know they're, where are your kids? I go, no, really?

I came and picked 'em up. Um, they're with me and she just is, she's crying. She goes, turn on the tv. And I'm like, she goes, A plane just crashed into your house.

What? Like, what? And she's like, go turn on the tv. A plane just crashed into your house, Jesus. And so I go and I turn on the TV and there's my townhouse and technically his wing hit the building across from mine. And, uh, the plane blew up right behind my building and scorched, you know, the siding and everything on the side of our building.

Um, but my kids were playing probably 50 to a hundred yards away when I picked them up. Wow. And I fell to my knees and I just started crying because he hit at 3 0 9. I left at 2 57. 

[01:12:00] Mike: Geez. 

[01:12:02] Jen: And in that moment I promised I would be obedient. And there have been lots of things that have come up inside of that where, you know, God is telling me, Hey, you, you need to go talk to that person.

Or, Hey, I want you to go do this, or, or whatever. And I'm, no, I don't want to. No, that's weird. No. Whatever. And it's like, Hey, you, you told me you would be obedient. Okay. You're right. I did. Inside of that life has unfolded for me in such wonderful, amazing ways, but it is incredibly difficult to be blindly obedient, I think even harder than blind faith.

[01:12:52] Mike: So there's gotta be limitations, I would assume, to that, right? Depending on who's requesting what of you. Now, are you, because, are you speaking just solely in through the vein of like your relationship with God? Mm-hmm. or in general? Just with God. Gotcha. 

[01:13:10] Jen: Yeah. I, I'm not, I, I would never be obedient to any one human 

[01:13:16] Mike: by this SEO package.

Yeah, yeah. That, 

[01:13:19] Jen: that, that one probably. But when it comes to, um, being obedient to God, yes, and I am, and I have been, and there are times when. Man, like that was a big stretch for me. But every time I've just done what I said I would do, my life just continues to unfold. But I, I joke cuz it took a plane crashing into my house before I would listen.

[01:13:48] Mike: What a wild set of circumstances. You made a distinction between obedience and blind faith. How, how do you delineate between those two things? 

[01:13:58] Jen: Well, I think blind faith is what you believe in without proof, right? Blind obedience is doing what you're being told to do without any understanding of what's gonna happen.

That is scary because it's, you know, having a belief or something doesn't necessarily impact what's gonna happen next. But taking action on something without understanding why. , you're taking action on that. Mm-hmm. , there are gonna be other things that you see directly at once that's done. 

[01:14:37] Mike: So it's like the strategy versus the execution of the strategy?

Kind 

[01:14:41] Jen: of, kind of, yeah. I mean, what you choose to believe in is your beliefs and it usually doesn't affect a lot of things around you. Um, but taking blind action could go any direction it wants to go based on that. I'll give you an example. Um, couple weeks ago I spoke at the Grace and Grind retreat right after my Dallas event.

Mm-hmm. . And um, I had this great PowerPoint presentation prepared like the top seven challenges women face in business. And it was awesome and I was really excited. And I get there and I'm sitting in the room and I'm like reading through my slideshow and God's like, that's not what you're talking about.

and I'm like, oh. But it is like, this is, I did this, like this is what I'm gonna go over today. Like I, I know, okay. Yeah. And no, Jen, you know? Nope. That's not what you're gonna talk about. And I kind of was like, shit. And I came out and I called my business partner, Phil, and I was like, you know, God's telling me this isn't what I'm talking about.

Like, I'm, I'm kind of freaked out even though I knew what I should talk about. Mm-hmm. , he was like, well, I know you and I know that you'll. Follow what you, what you said you would do and you'll be obedient and you're gonna get up there and you're gonna talk about exactly what God's telling you to talk about.

I'm like, damn it. Right? I wanted you to tell me, I wanted you to let me off the hook. 

[01:16:16] Mike: Yeah, gimme the out 

please. 

[01:16:17] Jen: Yeah, get, come on please. So like get up on stage and my PowerPoint comes up and it says the seven challenges women face in business. And I said, I did this whole project, or that created this whole new PowerPoint.

It's awesome. If you guys want it, I'll give you a copy of it. However, when I got here, I realized that that's not what I'm gonna talk about. And I'm gonna be obedient and talk about what I'm, what I'm being told to talk about the whole room's. Like what the fuck is going on, right? And so I said, first let me explain to you why I'm obedient.

And so I went and I told the plane crash story and I said, now let's jump back in. I read the seven. Uh, the seven challenges that women face in business. And I said, but I think we're missing the number one challenge that women face in business. Now, mind you, grace and grind is all women, right? I said the number one challenge women face in business is other women.

And the whole room is just silent. Hmm. And I go, we don't build each other up. We don't support each other. We may publicly act like we do, but we don't know who we can trust. I said, I speak to men all the time and I don't have anxiety or fear when I'm on a stage in front of men. I walked into this room today and I felt crippled.

And it's because I'm worried about your judgment and what you're gonna think of me and what you're gonna say about me behind my back. And that is a woman problem. I go, have you ever wondered why men have all these cool things that they get to do And they like go push logs together? It's like, ah, we're a team and they love each other forever.

You know, I go, but they don't have things like that for women because. . You can't put us all together and have us make a team. We won't do it. We're so untrusting and we're the first to go around and pretend like we're friends to somebody and then go stab somebody else in the back. And it ended up being this long presentation all around that and not being vulnerable and how light occurs for us and how much we miss out on because we can't forgive ourselves.

We have so much brokenness inside of us that it is easier to judge other people and their brokenness than it is to dig into ourselves and forgive ourselves. 

[01:18:38] Mike: No shit. That's a hell of a pivot. It 

[01:18:41] Jen: was scarier than anything I've ever done in my life. Okay. And when I, when I was arguing about not wanting to talk about it, he, you know, it just, as you said, you'd be obedient.

And, and that one was probably the hardest thing that I've ever been obedient to because I didn't, I had no idea how it was gonna land. And these are women. Um, and I had lots and lots of women reach out to me afterwards and tell me that it moved them, it was the best thing that they had heard. They got so much out of it.

Thanking me for being brave. Thanking me for being obedient. Um, , but it was, it was definitely not easy. 

[01:19:26] Mike: Well, you took my next question, which is, what is the biggest challenge as a, a woman in the space? So it's the, the other women thing right now, with that being said, like for, for the women out there that are, you know, whether they're just breaking into the construction industry or they've been here for a small amount of time and they're, they're looking to take step forwards.

Like, whether it's, whether it's personality traits, whether it's actions, whether it's inaction, um, what has been, what has lent to your success specifically in roofing, um, as a woman, specifically in roofing, uh, since you started your company, what are the things that you had to work through? What were challenges?

[01:20:08] Jen: Um, so I think there's a couple things. One, I think there's a difference between gender bias and sexism. Mm. And it's really important to be able to delineate between the two because if you believe that everything is a sexist comment, um, it cannot be an easy navigation. Now, I, I talked about this also gender bias is, Hey, do you know anything about roofing?

Like, and quizzing you on roofing knowledge And, um, your comprehension around that. Do you know how to use tools? Those are gender bias. That, that's not a sexist comment. Um, and the reason it's a gender bias is because we stereotype kids. You know, I asked the ladies, I said, okay, raise your hand in here if you got a tool set as a child for Christmas.

Right? One girl raised her hand. I go, well, your dad was a general contractor. That doesn't count, right? But for the most part, nobody else did. And then I said, okay, let me ask you this question. Who would right now take a tool set to a three year old girl, girl's birthday party? Nobody raises their hand. I said, you're gonna take her a baby doll, right?

And they're like, yeah. And I said, okay. So that is a gender stereotype that leads to gender bias. Now, if a guy was to walk up to you that you had never met, maybe dating your girlfriend and wants to hold your baby, what's the first thing? More than likely you're gonna ask him, have you ever held a baby? Do you know how to hold a baby?

This is how you hold a baby. You're gonna put your hand here, you're gonna do this. This is how you swaddle. This is how you hold. I go, are you being sexist? And they're like, and you can just see people's heads spinning. And I go, no, that's a gender bias. Because just like you didn't get tools as a little girl, they didn't get baby dolls as a boy, right?

So we assume they don't know those things. So when you go into an industry that is one full of men, And then two tr the traits that re, that most people have in this industry are not taught to women. Right. We're not taught those things growing up. So it is natural for men to ask, Hey, do you, do you know how to do this?

Like, or wonder if you know what you're doing. But, uh, that does not mean they're sexist pigs, right? So it it means that they just, were not supposed to know that kind of information. 

[01:22:44] Mike: Or not even that you're not supposed to. It's not unfair for, for somebody, a man to assume that you wouldn't. Right. Like I was listening to a podcast the other day and what you're talking about has it kind of sparked what I was listening was the Joe Rogan podcast, and I forget who the guest was, but he is like, just because you can offend it doesn't mean you need to be offended.

Right. Anybody can justify being offended for anything, right? Like, But is it always productive? Now, don't get me wrong, there's a time and a place, and there are certainly things that you should be offended by and should take a stand against. I'm not saying that, but um, I think that, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Right. Is is rationalizing that, like this is a valid question from somebody who would view you as an outsider of the industry, because typically, like you're, you're doing something atypical. Like what are the percentage of roofing contractor owners that are women? I don't know that stat. Maybe you do. 

[01:23:43] Jen: I can't get a clear number, but there's 105,000 roofing companies in the country.

Mm-hmm. and solely owned and operated by a woman. I think less than a. . 

[01:23:56] Mike: Okay. Yeah. So I mean, that's a fraction of a percentage, right? So, you know, some stereotypes are shit and are way off base, but some of them are right. And it's like if you've got a fraction of a percentage of people that are, are doing roofing and somebody comes in and claims they're roofer and they don't look like what your typical roofer would be, I guess it would make sense.

And uh, wow, that's really, yeah. You just 

[01:24:16] Jen: answer the questions, get your knowledge, you know? Yeah. Take, take personal responsibility for the fact that you chose a male dominated industry 

[01:24:25] Mike: and be proud of that shit, right? Yeah. Hell 

[01:24:27] Jen: yeah. Own that shit. When you know the answer to the questions, be proud of yourself because most people, most women don't, and that's okay.

Yeah. But don't make the other people wrong because they wonder if you do. Don't be a victim. Find your power. That's my biggest advice to women getting into the space. Understand the. When you're being, when somebody is being, um, sexist towards you, understand that too and hold people accountable. Sure. But don't collapse gender bias and sexism cuz they're not the same.

[01:25:03] Mike: How, you seem like a, you seem like an assertive person. Is that a, is that a fair assessment? 

[01:25:10] Jen: I would, I would say yes. I am a very assertive person. 

[01:25:13] Mike: Um, and I've listened to things and I've listened to people talk and, and when they talk about, you know, typical like tendencies associated with women, it's lack of assertiveness and that can manifest itself in a lot of different ways.

How, how, how did you become, was it naturally that you were an assertive person? Was it something where you've learned it and then developed that assertive assertiveness over time? What does that look like? 

[01:25:39] Jen: Um, it's probably a combination. Um, both. I hope I don't 

[01:25:42] Mike: get canceled for asking these questions.

Fuck, . 

[01:25:46] Jen: Both of my parents are, are alpha personalities, right? Okay. And so it was likely that they would have alpha children. Now I was, I went to three different high schools, three different elementary schools, one middle school. But I had to learn how to adapt myself and instantly have friends and instantly create, um, a place for myself all the time growing up and kind of navigating that.

And you have to be assertive to do that. If I would not have been an assertive person, I would've been a miserable child. 

[01:26:20] Mike: Be the weird kid in the corner of the class. 

[01:26:22] Jen: Yes. Now most people assume that I am the same in my home life as I am in my professional life, and I am not. I actually have very traditional views on gender roles, um, and enjoy.

Being a woman and being feminine and not needing to be in control and make all of the decisions and dominate and do those things. Um, I appreciate a partner who allows me the space to be feminine and to be a woman and have, you know, feelings and take care of, and nurture and not have to, um, wear that masculine mask at home.

Cuz it's hard. I do it at work and right now as a single mom, I do it because I'm both right. And so having, being able to rely on a partner is important to me from that side of things. 

[01:27:21] Mike: Is it easy for you to switch, flip that switch on and off? 

[01:27:27] Jen: Um, in the right relationship? Yes. Mm. But I have to trust that my partner has it under control.

Right. 

[01:27:38] Mike: Yeah. Whew. Man, that's, um,

I, I obvi, I can't, I'm trying to, I'm trying to put myself in in those shoes and it's very challenging for me to do that. I feel like it's usually something that I'm pretty good at and I'm struggling right now. I can't imagine going through that process and then, you know, trusting that individual and then switching from this mindset to this mindset kind of instantaneously when I break the threshold of the home.

I, kudos to you for, for figuring out a roadmap to get there. Um, 

[01:28:17] Jen: have you ever read the book The Way of the Superior Man? No. It's an interesting book about masculinity and femininity. Um, and I think I've struggled to be able to articulate it or I did struggle prior to reading that book. Um, but it makes a lot more sense in my brain now of why and how I do those things now.

It's just around finding, you know, a partner some at some point that can give me the space to do that and is confident enough to allow me to continue to grow and do the things that I want to do because most, not most, a lot of men would struggle with having a partner that's that driven working in a male dominated industry, and, um, have confidence in security in themselves.

[01:29:11] Mike: Why do you feel that is, um, you think it's a threat to their ego? 

[01:29:20] Jen: Well, not, no, men are broken too, right? Mm-hmm. and, um, society doesn't give the space for men to be as, to be broken. You know? It's still slightly taboo. For a man to go and do, um, therapy or to do something to better himself or to have emotions.

And, you know, there's shitty people out, out in the world. And so people get hurt and they get barriers up and they get insecure and various different things happen. And you know, you've got, you've got alpha men that are pretending to be alphas that end up becoming really controlling because they're insecurities underneath.

And then you have what a true alpha is, which is a safe place. I had a friend once described it as a man is a mountain and a woman is a lake, and the mountain holds the lake and the lake shapes, you know, switches forms, and you know, sometimes it's frozen, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's dry, sometimes it's not.

But the mountain always stands. And so in a true masculine alpha, they're always a mountain. You know, it doesn't mean they don't have emotions, but they allow that lake to kind of fluidly move. And the mountain doesn't get worried about what's going on leading up to the lake, so to speak, if that makes sense.

[01:30:42] Mike: Yeah, that's interesting. So don't go with the suck it up mentality. If you're a man, it's okay to not be okay. Right? 

[01:30:50] Jen: Yeah. You gotta forgive yourself too. You have to go through all the same shit, you know? Yeah. And find those areas and you know, if somebody cheated on you at some point, go figure out what did you do to contribute to that?

Did you not give them enough of you? Were you not willing to be vulnerable? You know, did you ignore the red flags on the, at the beginning? And then you have to forgive yourself and you have to forgive them because otherwise you take it into every relationship and it, not everybody is the same. 

[01:31:18] Mike: Yeah, that's, uh, I mean, I've, I've used a similar analogy when, you know, I'm dealing with prospective clients, right?

Like, there's a lot. So most, a lot of marketing companies have a reputation for being very shitty, disingenuous, or outright liars, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and they take advantage of, of ignorance, and I think ignorance has a negative connotation, but all it is is just not knowing, right? Not knowing. That's right.

I'm ignorant to the process. If you told me to go install, I'm having a roof installed literally today on one of my rental properties. If you asked me to go do it, I'd be, there's no fucking way, right? So I'm ignorant to that. The same way that like most contractors are ignorant to what it takes to accomplish A, B, or C at the granular level as far as a Google ad campaign or an SEO campaign.

But there's a level of distrust. It's almost like the same way that I felt. I tell people when I was 19 and I had to go find a. If they told me it was five grand to fix something or my one year old daughter would be at risk because my wheel's gonna fall off. It's like, fuck, I've got no way to disprove this.

I guess I'm gonna have to figure out a way to come up with five grand. So, um, but, but then you find a good mechanic, right? And that mechanic's reliable and they're honest with you and they explain things to you. So not carrying baggage from old relationships, whether they're personal relationships or, or business relationships, I think is crucial.

Like learn from them. Be aware of the lessons that you've been taught by your past, both shitty and really good relationships. Um, and try to forge future relationships, you know, with those things in mind. But, um, don't let them, cuz like you said, you, if you have a partner that cheated on you and you take that same energy in your next relationship, that thing's, it's fucking days are numbered.

Yes. It's just, it's just a matter of time and how much, right? Yes. That's amazing insight. Wow. Thank you . 

[01:33:02] Jen: Yeah, . No, no problem. I'm, I'm happy to help. 

[01:33:07] Mike: What, uh, do you have any questions for me now that I've just berated you for the last 90 

[01:33:15] Jen: minutes? I don't right now. Yeah. I feel, I feel like this was a really good, straightforward interview where we just chatted and I learned more about you and you learned more about me, and I appreciate that very much.

[01:33:34] Mike: Yeah, as do I. And, uh, I think that the, the perspective that you gave on a lot of the different things we address will, will contribute a ton of value to those watching. So I'm very grateful for you taking the time to come on. And, uh, yeah, we'll do it again sometime soon. 

[01:33:49] Jen: Sounds good. All right. Thanks a lot.

Have a wonderful day. Talk to you soon.